Semi Update to Things

[Indigo]

For the most part I like the crafting system. probably the one I like the most of all games I have played. I love the concept of WOs keeps the market from being flooded and doesn't waste raw materials. Like the faction and quests.

Only thing I would like to see is a reduction in complications, maybe not a lot, but some. I have mixed my skills/attributes around some and it did help a bit,

Perhaps another thing to do is be more clear about how the skills/attributes work. Give us hints about when diminishing returns occur, minimums and such so we can tweak our build to reduce comps as much as possible if it is our desire. Does problem solving say at 340 when lvl 30 waste points? What about station skill? We are kind of left to flounder away at trying to figure out what works (least I am). A few tips on how it is suppose to work might go along way.

As far as throwing ideas out that you can't possibly do near term. I would love teh concept of team crafting. Kind of like group harvesting, Get several different types of crafters together and craft some truly legendary items

Finally, keep up the good work, man folks are really enjoying most aspects of crafting I think.

Kydan

[Vlademir Dracul]

Originally Posted by velzevul

Hell NO!

I am sorry but Valdemir is suggesting some unreal not very thought out things on DRK boards and other threads, at this point, as far as I am concerned, I am not treating his opinion with very much weight. I am not very sure how far he got as a tradeskiller, but from a DRK prospective, he doesn't sound very experienced with the game.

Why, because I said int was pretty much useless for a DK? Or that I tank with a 2 hander due to the way DK are meant to play? There is a general rule in this game, "the best defense is a good offense."

I'm sorry to bring in stuff from other boards on this one... but some people just need to try it out before they say someone is either wrong or stupid lol. I have to say, this one got me laughing IRL lmao.

[milktoast]

I am very disappointed that the frequency of recipe upgrades will not be increased. I am almost level 28 and have never received a recipe upgrade although I craft mostly batches. I have also never seen any tailor recipe upgrades for sale on the broker. This is disheatening since it appears that a crafter without the upgrade recipes is a 2nd rate crafter.

I can deal with the grind but not the possibility that I will be useless when I'm done with it. I think you should seriously reconsider your position on this issue since these items are so important to crafters.

[Candy]

Originally Posted by Silius

So you are telling me that the crafting sphere is so bad that if I cannot get a coded cap on complications that the entire sphere needs a revamp? Is this honestly how you and others feel?

I'll freely admit that I see no point to complications whatsoever. All they do is add to the tedium that is crafting. This game has been out for several months. Why are there only TWO level 50 tailors on my server. AND to add insult to the whole thing when I ask how much they charge for a piece of T5 gear for a sorcerer, the answer is ONE PLAT FOR EACH ITEM. That in itself says VOLUMES about how bad crafting is in Vanguard. Is that what was envisioned for crafting? It is such a horrible grind to 50 that NOONE wants to do it. Complications serve absolutely no purpose other than to slow us down. You'll have folks spouting off at the mouth about how complications keep it "Hard Core" WETF that mean. They do nothing but discourage us. Imagine three friends, all from a different sphere within the game discussing last evenings activities....

Adventurer: Oh man that dungeon crawl last night was awesome! We killed 5 nameds, got some great gear and I got almost a whole level! I'll be 45 tomorrow! I do wish that there were some T5 crafters around so I could get some great gear for the next crawl, oh well, these quest rewards and named drops are almost just as good.

Diplomat: Yea, my night was great as well, I had this parley that I was having problems with but I was able to put together a great setup and pull it out! I was so proud! Diplomacy was really fun last night, I am leveling up so nicely!

Crafter: I did the exact same thing over and over again for 4 hours last night, there was no excitement, there was no strategy, there was only mind numbing button pushing. In that 4 hours I got 12% exp and 3 green crafting clothing that noone will buy so I had to sell them to the vendor for 15 copper. I haven't seen a recipe in 6 levels and I can't wear any gear more than a couple levels higher than my crafting level because the EE cost is so absurd. Oh I might have gotten some better rewards but half my batches I couldnt complete because I randomly got so many complications that i ran out of points.

Cynical, I know, but you get the point. Crafting is NOT fun once you get into your 30's. It is entirely too slow. It is entirely too boring. It is NOT fun to sit there progressing at a snails pace while everyone else in voince/guild chat is having such a better time than you are. There needs to be more T5 crafters. ALOT more! Anyone against that is already a T5 crafter and just wants to keep the market cornered for as long as possible.

Raise crafting EXP ALOT
Get rid of Complications

Let's get back to playing a GAME and having FUN and quitting the second job that is T4/5 crafting.

[Shag]

Originally Posted by Silius

So you are telling me that the crafting sphere is so bad that if I cannot get a coded cap on complications that the entire sphere needs a revamp? Is this honestly how you and others feel?

Probably know my answer from other posts.... but NO I don't think the crafting sphere is that bad.

[Vlademir Dracul]

Originally Posted by milktoast

I am very disappointed that the frequency of recipe upgrades will not be increased. I am almost level 28 and have never received a recipe upgrade although I craft mostly batches. I have also never seen any tailor recipe upgrades for sale on the broker. This is disheatening since it appears that a crafter without the upgrade recipes is a 2nd rate crafter.

I can deal with the grind but not the possibility that I will be useless when I'm done with it. I think you should seriously reconsider your position on this issue since these items are so important to crafters.

The biggest problem is that you can't increase rates on one server, and decrease them on another, you also can't increase or decrease based on profession class. Like Silius said, populations plays a very important role here. Also, another problem is that at that low a level, you don't have that many chances to get a recipe as you do at say... level 35 or so, due to amount of batches it takes to level up.

I suggest doing lower level (recipe level 21-23 Batch tailoring WOs) until you get it, I know it won't net you that much EXP, but it will be worth it if you want to make any T3 upgraded items. If not, skip ahead to T4, and your chances of getting one from a WO while leveling normally will most likely double.

[DocSavag]

Originally Posted by Silius

So you are telling me that the crafting sphere is so bad that if I cannot get a coded cap on complications that the entire sphere needs a revamp? Is this honestly how you and others feel?

I don't know if I would go as far as to suggest that absent a hard cap the whole thing should be rewritten, but the complications system in it current form isn't a lot of fun. Its mostly frustrating especially when you get on the wrong side of the RND generator.

I like the idea of complications that you can make choices to counteract. What I really detest is complications that happen one after another or happen so late as to make completing the recipe impossible. It happens far to often at least to me. So much so that I finally just stopped doing it.

[ElCucuy]

My feeling, as a casual player, is that the crafting system in and of itself is a great process, ie, a fun game. It parallels adventuring very well, because there is the randomness of not knowing what reward you will gain, as well as the unexpected nature of the complications.

Now, having said that, there is no doubt that the process still feels very "grindy". I attempted to craft a new weapon for a guildmate the other day, even though I was only one level over the formula, and it was a difficult process. But quite fun to try to beat the house, so to speak, even though the odds were against me. And I get that same feeling whenever I try to create an item. It's a very fun process.

On the flip side though are WO's. I LOVE the concept of WO's. The very idea is so superior to every other game I've played. The actual act of grinding out these work orders though is, well, a grind. When crafting a regular item, the end result after the crafting process, is that you now have that item. With a WO the end result is some XP and cash (and the small chance of a recipe or item, yes I know). But that's very similar to just grinding out mobs anywhere in the world (you get xp and some cash, and a tiny chance of a nice drop). My thought (and this is just a knee jerk thought here) is to look at removing or severely reducing complications on WO's. Allowing WO's to complete a bit faster might be a big step towards reducing the tedium that some people are talking about.

In my mind, I'd compare comp-free WO's to adventurers grinding on 2-dots rather than on 3- or 4-dots.

[Teek]

Well, i could go on and on about what "I" feel is right and wrong with crafting, but here is what "I" would like to see.

A slight increase in XP at later levels. I know how to do workorders. Doing 8 million of them doesn't make me better, it just proves that I can withstand alot of tedium.

More crafting quests with bigger xp payouts. I do a level 25 crafting quest, give me 25% of level 25. When/if more quests become available, adjust the XP givin down to 12% or something. Just give us more to do than a couple quests every few levels for poor XP.

And finally, remove or tweak BOE. While not neccessary to remove, I personally won't by any BOE equipment until I get close to level 50, since I cant resell it once I outlevel it, while looted equipment can be resold, often at a profit.

Just my thoughts. Carry on everyone

[Tyridel]

Originally Posted by Silius

So you are telling me that the crafting sphere is so bad that if I cannot get a coded cap on complications that the entire sphere needs a revamp? Is this honestly how you and others feel?

I dont think so. Hard caps always cause trouble, and people will complain about the hard caps anyhow. IMHO what you you were doing with station skill was the best possible solution. I'm just curious as to why really low level recipes still screw me over when my station skill is so high :P

I also agree with some previous posters. This crafting system is ingenious. Usually i dont craft in MMO's at all, but in VG i dont do anything but craft :P If there's a selling point for VG it's the very original crafting system.

[Starelle]

I know its a gross exaggeration and a bad comparison but... removing comps would be similar to removing damage mobs do to adventurers. Sure its a core element of the sphere that makes things more difficult and gives a chance of failure but customers are getting far too frustrated by dieing all the time so it should just be removed.

Failing a combined in crafting is the only "risk" we have. Removing comps pretty much removes that risk. What other chance is there for failure? Running out of points? That isn't going to happen very often - especially without comps to eat up those points.

So what's the major "risk" in adventuring? Death and the penalty that goes with it. Can you imagine adventuring without ANY death penalty? You just die, repop fully equiped, fully buffed, a few yards away from your group in an invulnerable state that doesn't drop until you attack a mob. To me, that would be crafting without comps. Comps might not be fun, but I have no desire to bother with a system that has no "risk" and therefore will eventually have no "reward".

[fartacus]

Maybe a happy compromise for the complication system would be to up the chances of getting a yellow (semi-beneficial) or green (fully beneficial) complication based on the skill used right before the comp pops up. At 10x lvl skill, an even-level recipe might have 80% chance of generating a red comp, 15% yellow, and 5% green. Up that skill to 10x lvl +30, and maybe it would be 65% red, 25% yellow, and 10% green. It kinda makes sense that a complication's effect would be based on the skill that was used. If you've got a massively high tool skill, and a tool action produces a comp, it's more likely to be something like Brilliant Work because of the character's proficiency with tools.

Complication frequency could stay semi-random based on station skill this way, and it would lower the amount of frustration people are having with the system.

[Vlademir Dracul]

Originally Posted by Tyridel

IMHO what you you were doing with station skill was the best possible solution. I'm just curious as to why really low level recipes still screw me over when my station skill is so high :P

That's one of the reasons why I suggested the hard cap on comps. If getting comps to be lower at lower level based on your station skill is outside of Silius control, or is something that cannot be done, caps /may/ be one good way to control that issue.

Alls I'm trying to do is help and offer suggestions, as wild or as illogical some may sound... it is better than giving none at all IMO .

[Harok]

Crafting with no complications or without occassionally failing would be an absolute joke. Sure it is frustrating those times when the RNG nails you and you fail the 5th item in a batch or get hit with a negative quality comp right at the end (I have cursed out Underheating a number of times but am over it in 1 minute) that knocks you down a grade. What have you really lost by failing a WO item? A small amount of time where you didn't get xp and a lesser reward? Hardly a reason to get bent out of shape or say the game/crafting system sucks.

Honestly if you are one of those people who gets that upset over failing or getting knocked down a grade just concentrate on slightly easier WOs. The xp per item might be lower but you are getting them done faster, get the same rewards and won't have to worry about getting so frustrated.

I have been a crafter in many games and they have all been a grind. If they weren't a grind everyone would have a max level crafter. Vanguard's version of crafting is by far more interesting than most others, I am not going to say it is perfect as there are many small changes I would make but overall it is a solid system.

Some people need a little perspective. No one is forcing you to craft, if you don't like the system and think adventurers and diplomats have it great while us crafters are messed up....go be an adventurer and diplomat.

If you are having a ton of complications perhaps you need new gear, or to configure your stats differently, or need to try new techniques like getting quality from one type of action instead of another one, etc. If you try everything and still get 6 or more complications on even easy WOs (not once in 20 times but half the time) post stats and information that can help the devs find out what the problem might be.

[Romba Rumblethorn]

My wife and I are playing VG casually and both crafting / adventuring. I think Vanguard's crafting system is by far the most entertaining and interesting one I've seen in a MMOG to date. Of course not everyone will like it.

My concerns with crafting are primarily centered around the way the sphere relates to adventuring which really is for another thread. I've temporarily stopped weapon smithing though because it seemed a poor investment of my time by comparison with the easy to access quest rewards as an adventurer. Instead I'm working on club housing with an alt. I hope to get back into weapon smithing in the future as the game develops. My real interest in crafting is direct support of adventuring for my friends and I, namely weapons and armor.

I'd like to see a lot of tuning and development over time throughout Vanguard, including the crafting sphere and it's complication mechanics. The idea of removing them entirely seems ridiculous to me though. I thought the heart of the system was that it represented a kind of turn based combat, where you were presented little challenges you had to react to. Personally, I wish the combat system had retained that focus and was closer in spirit to the crafting system.

Vanguard's weakest retention point with it's long term player base is a lack of confidence in future expectations imo. A game like Vanguard targets players who intend to invest significantly for a long period of time from a recreational stand point. For many of these players a game like this isn't something they just want to try out for a few months before moving on. This is the kind of crowd Sigil stated they wanted to attract and keep.

Silius is one of my favorite Sigil / SOE devs to read. Not because I always agree with his perspective by any means. Rather, because I've always felt his posts have integrity, are straight forward and as honest as possible. The suggestion that some players whining on a forum about how difficult such a significant part of the crafting system like "Complications" is for them... could cause it to be removed, is kind of disheartening.

I say improve it when you get time. Make it more interesting. All aspects of the game can use that kind of attention in the future. Anything you do in a game many times can seem repetitive. From cranking out wo's, to traveling the world, to mashing many of the same buttons over and over in combat many activities can seem tedious when often repeated. That doesn't mean all travel should be replaced by insta teleport to your content of choice. It doesn't mean that combat should be resolved in a dice roll to save repetitive button mashing. It doesn't mean complications need to be scrapped or turned off either.

[Silius]

Just a point about the EE stuff. The increase in EE was proportional to the increase in mods for crafting gear. Crafting gear was balanced from the get go and the recent modification of points for all items caused a problem for crafting clothing so the EE had to be increased to counter that. Tools having EE...well I am not going to explain that as it is obvious why that happened. Utility bags getting EE was needed because utility bags can have stats on them and they are considered in balance.

As far as complications, seeing your reaction here helps. Especially those who are so quick to want to remove them. If anything the reasons that are being presented as to why they should just be removed and random statistics being thrown out to support some apparent need to get rid of them make me realize even more that removing them is not a good idea.

Complications Are supposed to be a burr in your side. When a caster comes in and nukes you to death it sucks especially since he just took xp from you and you are forced to spend time retrieving your corpse. In crafting their is 0 sacrifice when xping except time. Yes time is valuable , but when you fail that is all you lost. Crafting does not require real items to advance, instead if gives you a bonus if you choose to use them. Your lost of time equates to grabbing another work order and maybe a loss of faction if you failed on a single item work order. But outside of that if you failed one at least you still can get some credit for what you did do.

I get that penalties suck, I know that clicking alot is annoying, I certainly understand that repetitive gameplay gets boring, but complications are meant to make you angry they are not meant to make you happy. They are negative by nature as they represent potential mistakes you can make. Even if you are the best at something you can still make mistakes. The greatest 3-point shooter can still have a streak of bad games, the greatest scientist can still make a mistake, the best carpenter can still mess up a project by simply screwing up a measurement he has done several times before.

The crafting system is a system built around setting your own pace. You want to watch some TV while crafting go ahead, you need to stop mid process and handle something in real life, please do so. While I want you engaged I also understand that the very nature of crafting is one that will involve repetitive play generally in the same place and it will involve clicking/key pressing, but how often do you press a key going from one to fifty as a crafter versus as an adventurer?

Complications are something that help spice things up and hopefully make you think before, during and after a process. Can they be excessive? Yes they certainly can be. Is some of it simply do to with a mean RNG? Absolutely it is. Will I tweak them as best I can and reconsider some of their power? I certainly will. What I won’t do is accept that I have done such a poor job as a designer that the crafting system needs some major revamp because some people don’t agree with the ideas behind the system.

I understand we have problems, and I get where a chunk of them come from. I want you to enjoy crafting as much as you can and I want to see it grow and become more entertaining. As many have said already removing comps would be counter to that. For those of you arguing luck over skill I can tell ya it is a combination of both. When I can sit here and watch one of our ex devs pretty much read and defeat the comp AI despite the randomness of some complications I know that there is skill involved. When I can have a discussion with my team about different situations they have been in and how they went about modifying stats or choosing different options I know that there is skill involved.

All in all comps will stay, I have already made multiple modifications to potential frequency it just has not made it to test yet. But as I said I can only do so much without dedicated programming time and as much as you may not like to hear it our focus is on adventuring and general game polish right now.

Silius

[vjek]

Originally Posted by Silius

So you are telling me that the crafting sphere is so bad that if I cannot get a coded cap on complications that the entire sphere needs a revamp? Is this honestly how you and others feel?

Personally, I would NOT say that the entire sphere needs a revamp, but if you cannot get a coded cap on complicatins, turning them off is a good compromise, imo.

As you said, Silius, there's limited coding resources available for the crafting sphere at the moment. Given that's the case, the options are pretty limited. If, through tweaking, you cannot effectively cap the complications by level, or reduce them to the point where it's effectively the same thing, then turning them off is a great option, in my opinion. At least you'll have more high level crafters.

If having more high level crafters is a design goal, then the logic flow, given the available info, is sound.

[Kookus]

I haven't been involved thusfar, but I feel the need to chime in here: please don't turn off comps. The crafting grind is repetitive enough as it is... if I didn't have a comp creeping up from time to time, keeping me awake, if nothing else, I'd probably put a bullet in my head.

[vjek]

Originally Posted by Silius

All in all comps will stay, I have already made multiple modifications to potential frequency it just has not made it to test yet. But as I said I can only do so much without dedicated programming time and as much as you may not like to hear it our focus is on adventuring and general game polish right now.

Silius

Ok, fair enough. I look forward to seeing the changes on Live and comparing them to the current build. Here's looking positively forward!

I'll give you an example that might provide some insight as to what led me down the path of "cap it or drop it" , as this might be seen as extreme by some.

I was making some T1 (mangled) leather armor for an alt of mine. I'm a level 34 Leatherworker, and these combines are level 8-14. So between 20 and 28 levels below me.

On one combine, the legs I believe, I saw 5 complications. The recipe is 20-28 levels below me, and I saw 5 complications. hehehe. I couldn't believe it. I mean, at what point do I get the luxury of a complication-free combine? Will I see 5 complications on a level 8 combine when I'm level 50? /shudder

In addition (while I recognize at some point 35+ there is apparently some last-stage-action that allows you to recover Quality) I also was unable to make one of the items to 100% because I got a Poor Measuring on the last step. I had over 1000AP remaining, but I couldn't make it 100%, 20-28 levels below, because of comps outside my control. Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but what I've related here is the type of thing that lead me to the "cap it or drop it" attitude.